H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Morning Musume。'14, Berryz Kobo, ℃-ute, S/mileage, Juice=Juice, Hello!Project, TNX, and more

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Favorite H!P group addition?

Danbara Ruru -> Juice=Juice
16
20%
Yanagawa Nanami -> Juice=Juice
6
7%
Morito Chisaki -> Morning Musume. '17
15
19%
Funaki Musubu -> ANGERME
13
16%
Kawamura Ayano -> ANGERME
15
19%
Ichioka Reina -> New H!P Group
16
20%
 
Total votes : 81

Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby koregaboku » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:43 am

Starra wrote:You do realise that they probably had no say in the matter, right? It was most likely this situation or graduate completely.

And I think you missed the part where Country Girls are probably going to not be doing anything for a couple of years. It's not like they're doing the exact same workload in their new groups AND CG at the same time. The entire reason they're being shuffled around to these other groups is because they want to stay active and do more than just sitting around waiting for the one time out of a year that Yamaki and Ozeki's schedules might allow them to release something. The Country Girls announcement said any new songs would most likely be digital only and they'd only participate in H!P concerts, which makes it sound like the group's basically dead (if only temporarily).

but I liked 'stable' groups like berryz and C-ute and I am longing for a new 'stable' Group to fall in Love with... Sadly H!P Doesnt seem to care about longlasting groups anymore.

And you're missing the entire point of H!P groups. I hate to break the news to you, but Berryz and ℃-ute were abnormalities. Pretty much EVERY SINGLE H!P GROUP EVER (that lasted, lol) has had member additions (and graduations). The only ones that went, say, more than 5 years without change (that had a significant number of members to begin with) were Melon Kinenbi (at the time they were known for it), Berryz Koubou, ℃-ute and kinda Juice=Juice almost (although IIRC when they were announced they did say it was potentially a changing lineup).

Lastly: THEY CHANGE THE LINEUPS LIKE THIS SO THAT THE GROUPS CAN BE LONG-LASTING. Guess what? Sometimes idols want to go and do other things. Sometimes circumstances don't work out and they have to leave for whatever reason.

You're in the wrong place, the exit is that way.

EDIT: Melon Kinenbi, Berryz Koubou and Buono! are the only long-lasting H!P groups that never added any new members. ℃-ute doesn't count because Kanna was added 6 months after the group was announced.


This was a little harsh, no? Especially your last line.

Historically, H!P may have had revolving groups but that was not true for historically recent H!P aside from MM17 and Angerme (and more on Angerme later). And while Miekie did not indicate it, you don't know how long other fans have been fans for. I personally became a fan in the '09-'10 period when H!P was as stable as possible; hell, even MM was stable during that period. During that time I got to watch and experience the slow and steady climb of C-ute and Berryz go from fairly mediocre sales (I just checked and Kiss me Aishiteru only did 20k~25k) to a more respectable 60k.

The first addition I experienced didn't happen until I was a year, a year and a half in, and the first group I saw debut from "indies" to "major" was Juice=Juice, a solid 2~3 years after I became an MM (and eventually H!P) fan and aside from losing a girl they also haven't seen any changes. Berryz is the first real group I've also seen totally disband and I've been a fan for 8 or so years now (which by my quick calculations I've been a fan for almost 40% of the history of H!P). For a recent (or fairly recent fan in my case), all of these changes to the groups is unusual.

You're also not taking into consideration (choosing not to? failing to?) that the first batch of non-MM groups were literally Morning Musume off-shoots, a lot of them even had some version of "Morning/Moni" or "Musume" in the name. In those cases it was expected that the groups would change as girls graduated from the mothership and that other girls would be added to replace them to keep the groups active.

That wasn't the case for Berryz, C-ute, or Juice=Juice; the members weren't MM girls doing a side job. Even the one offshot group (Buono!) was damn stable because the girls were pulled from stable groups and even when one of the groups disbanded, the two that were in Buono! remained active idols.

And to the S/mileage/Angerme point, I'm not entirely convinced they were intended to be a growing and shrinking group. Adding 2nd gen seemed completely reactionary to losing Saki and Yuuka in rapid succession and not wanting to admit that S/mileage was a bust. The name change to Angerme (smartly, IMO) was an effort to shed the S/mileage back history. Graduating and adding girls to Angerme seems to have become the norm but not necessarily because it was planned that way.

You, as a very longstanding H!P fan, may be experiencing this as par for the course but for many of the rest of us these shakeups are new experiences. Please don't suggest people take an exit out of the fandom, you saw H!P through the "dark ages" and therefore you, of all people, should understand that in order to keep H!P (or any other entertainer/fandom) alive that fans need to be maintained (and increased), not lost.
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby BerryzCelebration » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:49 am

Sorry to say, but H!P losing one foreign fan isn't going to hurt them in the long run lol.
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby koregaboku » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:52 am

Yeah, but if H!P Fandom gets the reputation for being anti-new fans it's a quick and dirty downward spiral.
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby resop2 » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:06 am

For me an eight person group with a twist: Only Ichioka Reina is an H!P member, the other seven remain KSS and the group is an indi group. Also, the membership is revolving, determined by an annual election among the dozen or so people who actual follow the KSS. :fear:

By making the group indi, if one of the KSS becomes super popular and a spot opens up in an established H!P group and it is determined that the popular KSS girl would be a good fit, then she could debut in H!P and the girl who was eighth in the election would take over. Also, by not debuting the election winners they can go back to being KSS if they lose the next election.

We could call this KSS4u8. :fear:
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby AyuHikaru » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:45 am

If someone became a fan back when Platinum Era was a thing, one would really think H!P was the most stable thing in history.

Back in the day though... there were plenty of groups that were stable? Melon Kenenbi was stable. Mini Moni was stable, with only Takahashi being added much later once it was clear the Gooch had checked out. T&C Bomber? Stable. W? Stable. Coconuts Musume lost members but never added anyone. Biyuden - Stable.

Country Musume has always been a doomed group, has been since the moment Yanagihara Hiromi died. Petitemoni and Tanpopo switched around members, but they were more units than anything.

I mean... not for nothing, but history proves that H!P has a history of groups that don't constantly switch out members and add new ones.
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby Solarblade » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:20 am

AyuHikaru wrote:If someone became a fan back when Platinum Era was a thing, one would really think H!P was the most stable thing in history.

Back in the day though... there were plenty of groups that were stable? Melon Kenenbi was stable. Mini Moni was stable, with only Takahashi being added much later once it was clear the Gooch had checked out. T&C Bomber? Stable. W? Stable. Coconuts Musume lost members but never added anyone. Biyuden - Stable.

Country Musume has always been a doomed group, has been since the moment Yanagihara Hiromi died. Petitemoni and Tanpopo switched around members, but they were more units than anything.

I mean... not for nothing, but history proves that H!P has a history of groups that don't constantly switch out members and add new ones.


To be fair, T&C were together only for like a year and a half (on top of losing Miwa for a single), and Coconuts added someone in their lineup (Lehua).
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby Chibs » Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:33 am

Are there stable groups in the jpop idol scene? if so are they the majority?
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby Denki » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:37 pm

Some "stable" groups are starting to graduate from being idols.

Idols are meant to come and go. Nowadays, group doesn't have to.
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby Starra » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:45 pm

The only stable idol groups I can think of are the Stardust ones (Momoclo, Ebichu, etc, but Momoclo weren't stable at the beginning and Ebichu have had new members).

koregaboku wrote:This was a little harsh, no? Especially your last line.

It's not a harsh response to someone who doesn't understand how things work.

Historically, H!P may have had revolving groups but that was not true for historically recent H!P aside from MM17 and Angerme (and more on Angerme later). And while Miekie did not indicate it, you don't know how long other fans have been fans for. I personally became a fan in the '09-'10 period when H!P was as stable as possible; hell, even MM was stable during that period. During that time I got to watch and experience the slow and steady climb of C-ute and Berryz go from fairly mediocre sales (I just checked and Kiss me Aishiteru only did 20k~25k) to a more respectable 60k.

Members get added to groups all the time. Maybe not exactly like this, but sudden additions have happened in the past. 2009/10 was just an era of nothing happening lol.

The first addition I experienced didn't happen until I was a year, a year and a half in, and the first group I saw debut from "indies" to "major" was Juice=Juice, a solid 2~3 years after I became an MM (and eventually H!P) fan and aside from losing a girl they also haven't seen any changes.

That's just your personal experience though? If you'd become a fan a few months earlier you would've been around for S/mileage.

Berryz is the first real group I've also seen totally disband and I've been a fan for 8 or so years now (which by my quick calculations I've been a fan for almost 40% of the history of H!P). For a recent (or fairly recent fan in my case), all of these changes to the groups is unusual.

Berryz didn't exactly "totally disband" (I mean, they did, but y'know). Also, they might be unusual in very recent years, but if you look back it's not entirely weird apart from randomly putting the Country Girls members in different units. But sudden additions to MM。/ANGERME aren't weird, and I would argue that J=J isn't that weird either since it's a Kenshuusei unit.

You're also not taking into consideration (choosing not to? failing to?) that the first batch of non-MM groups were literally Morning Musume off-shoots, a lot of them even had some version of "Morning/Moni" or "Musume" in the name. In those cases it was expected that the groups would change as girls graduated from the mothership and that other girls would be added to replace them to keep the groups active.

I see those as different because they're subunits rather than actual groups. The "Musume。" in the name (in the case of Country and Coconuts) just implied a link between those groups and Morning Musume。.

Plus, I don't really get your point. I'm not the one with the problem with lineup changes?

That wasn't the case for Berryz, C-ute, or Juice=Juice; the members weren't MM girls doing a side job. Even the one offshot group (Buono!) was damn stable because the girls were pulled from stable groups and even when one of the groups disbanded, the two that were in Buono! remained active idols.

With Berryz and ℃-ute I think it was more likely that it was because they were from a special audition and didn't want to add anyone who wasn't (other than Kanna, obviously, but I still don't really get the point of that one lol). I guess Tsunku also saw them as strong enough lineups to the point where he didn't feel a need to add anyone else.

And to the S/mileage/Angerme point, I'm not entirely convinced they were intended to be a growing and shrinking group. Adding 2nd gen seemed completely reactionary to losing Saki and Yuuka in rapid succession and not wanting to admit that S/mileage was a bust. The name change to Angerme (smartly, IMO) was an effort to shed the S/mileage back history. Graduating and adding girls to Angerme seems to have become the norm but not necessarily because it was planned that way.

It was announced apparently by Tsunku somewhere (can't find a source, but it's on the Japanese Wiki and all the matome sites) at the beginning that there was a possibility of member changes. I do remember this as well, vaguely?

I agree about ANGERME being a good name change (other than the name itself, which is stupid). I think a lot of the additions have been because someone's graduating (Kanon, Meimi), or, more recently, because Ayaka seemed to be hung up on the idea of "ANGERME MUST BE 9 MEMBERS!!!" for a wihle.

You, as a very longstanding H!P fan, may be experiencing this as par for the course but for many of the rest of us these shakeups are new experiences. Please don't suggest people take an exit out of the fandom, you saw H!P through the "dark ages" and therefore you, of all people, should understand that in order to keep H!P (or any other entertainer/fandom) alive that fans need to be maintained (and increased), not lost.

I'm sorry, but when someone seems upset about the very idea of change and seems to have completely missed the entire point of something, I'm gonna call them out on it. I don't care if people think, say, Ruru should've been in MM。instead of J=J. But saying that H!P doesn't care about making long-lasting units anymore because they keep changing lineups is silly.

Personally, I also don't think it matters if one international fan isn't a fan anymore. We're not that important, really.

@AyuHikaru: I was only talking about groups that lasted more than 5 years, not subunits or one-shot groups and certainly not groups that were around for like... maybe one year lol.
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby boinsie » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:07 pm

I understand how a ton of people freaking out over this can get frustrating, but it's no exaggeration to say that this is a weird, unprecedented thing. It's not one group announcing auditions for a new generation with several months notice; it's the three flagship groups having new members added -without- auditions, with only a couple of weeks' forewarning to the fans. Add to that a major change-up to the activities of a group that people had been anticipating being out on their own finally. It's a lot of stuff.
To say that everyone shouldn't be surprised by this, just because H!P used to be more volatile in the past than it has been for past 5-7 years, is frankly ridiculous. :lol:
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby Celedam » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:35 pm

boinsie wrote:three flagship groups

Umm… There can be only one flagship anything. That's the point — it's the best or most important thing in a group of things. The term was originally navy jargon for the one ship in a fleet that carries the commanding admiral, i.e., the ship that flies the admiral's flag.

I wouldn't say anything if it was anyone else, but you've specifically asked me to correct you on stuff like this.
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby Starra » Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:56 pm

boinsie wrote:I understand how a ton of people freaking out over this can get frustrating, but it's no exaggeration to say that this is a weird, unprecedented thing. It's not one group announcing auditions for a new generation with several months notice; it's the three flagship groups having new members added -without- auditions, with only a couple of weeks' forewarning to the fans. Add to that a major change-up to the activities of a group that people had been anticipating being out on their own finally. It's a lot of stuff.
To say that everyone shouldn't be surprised by this, just because H!P used to be more volatile in the past than it has been for past 5-7 years, is frankly ridiculous. :lol:

I'm just over people acting like change = bad every single damn time. Yes, this is different, but so many people are having a negative reaction to this without thinking about it rationally at all and it pisses me off.

Nothing is *~*ruined*~*, yes it will take some time getting used to, but people are also acting like this is some sort of crime or something and it's just... I'm tired of people overreacting to this. Especially when the girls themselves aren't happy about it either (for the most part) and if anything we should try to be supportive (not that they read our comments, but y'know). This was most likely Nishiguchi or Hashimoto or both of them making these decisions.

I'm not saying people can't vent their frustrations, but at least have some kind of valid argument. I'm sick of "they changed it now it SUCKS" every time UF tries something new with H!P.

Don't mind me, I'm just in a shitty mood in general lately. It's got nothing to do with H!P though or anything in particular.
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby otaku_blue » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:18 pm

AyuHikaru wrote:If someone became a fan back when Platinum Era was a thing, one would really think H!P was the most stable thing in history.

Yeah I think stability and nostalgia is/was one of the company's key marketing points, since many kids that grew up with Morning Musume and HP kids could later return to the group and support them as adults.

Also to be honest, I'm not really fond of the idea of constant instability. I hated how much of a mess Country Musume was, and this was Hello Project still at its prime but the group was a complete mess towards the end. Its just so confusing for anyone that isn't otaku. You could also tell it affected the group by looking at their sales numbers. I wouldn't categorise Angerme/MM as unstable groups because changing line-ups are expected.

I personally think many fans that came back to Hello Project after its slump were able to because of the familiarity they had with those groups. So I think that these anxious feelings from losing this stability that Hello Project had maintained for several years are valid. So they either have to market these changes properly or risk distancing themselves further from the fans during a time with so many graduations and an evolving identity for Hello Project.
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby Starra » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:24 pm

What baffles me is when new members are added in response to graduations/sudden departures and people act like it's a bad thing. If they didn't do that, the groups would die. They keep adding members to keep the groups going. It's rare that groups want to keep going for as long as, say, Berryz or ℃-ute.

Also, I don't think changing members is "confusing".
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby Menno » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:32 pm

For J=J the issue is mostly that this addition is pretty much completely out of the blue. There haven't been any new additions to groups after such a long period of stability from the start. Usually changes only happen just before a major debut or when there are girls leaving after a longer period. J=J had the just before major change with Aina leaving, but no one was added to replace her. I do think that this new addition right now clearly is a change of direction for J=J by UF. For years it has always been a mix between stable groups and revolving groups. I think we can now conclude that all groups will continue to revolve from now. And not just to constantly bring in fresh faces also to create new positions for the trainees. The stability from the 2nd half of the 2000s, was also reflected in the H!P Egg pretty much doing nothing for 5 years since their 1st audition.

I can see why people are not happy with these changes, even though we do have to get used to seeing more.

I'm just lucky that the most recent additions to Angerme have not been disappointing in any way. And I have good faith that the new girls will fit in perfectly. I've been watching Ayano's karaoke video's on YouTube, she really was into S/mileage songs. I'm happy for her and for Angerme that UF chose the right group for her. As a bonus she won't have any issues learning all the lyrics to the songs. And Musube is already friends with the members and has the right attitude, that can't go wrong.
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby Starra » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:59 pm

Menno wrote:I can see why people are not happy with these changes, even though we do have to get used to seeing more.

I suppose in the end I agree with this. I don't expect everyone to be happy, but what I personally get annoyed at are the people dismissing every change as bad and refusing to accept it as a thing that happens.

Also, I'm totally with you on ANGERME. At the time I didn't think either Kamiko or Momona were needed additions, but now they're my top 2 in the group :fear: (only because Meimi left though). The same thing happened with Tsubaki -- honestly I was kinda mad that they got new members before they'd even had their major debut, but I love 2/3 of them and the 3rd is pretty neat too.
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby JonCC » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:50 pm

I find no fault at all with this reorganisation.

-It prevents the total disbandment of Country Girls.
-It allows two girls to focus fully on school, something H!P is well-known for allowing idols to do.
-It directly prevents the graduation of the three other Country Girls members.
-It extends the life of the groups receiving new members.
-It allows three Trainees to debut.
-It will result in the creation of a new group, which will allow even more Trainees or outside girls to debut.

Hello! Project is about change. From the very first graduation and from the second ever audition.
It is through this change that the system has the potential to last a lifetime and beyond.

After losing many promising members over the last few years (Uta, Riho, Manaka and Meimi to name a few), I can only applaud that they are doing this.
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby AyuHikaru » Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:23 am

How did I forget about Lehua!? I love Lehua XD

Anyway, H!P goes through fluxes and people aren't happy about it till they get used to it. Here are things I remember people flipping out about:

~ H!P Kids. Divisive as fuck. SOOO many people hated the idea.
~ Miki Fujimoto being added to 6th Gen. LET ME TELL YOU, the forum I was on at the time was not nice about this. People hated it but also people called Miki a flop (Kinda what people are doing to Country Girls now)
~ Junjun and Linners being added to 8th gen
~ Aika being 8th gen at all.
~ Koharu. Just... Koharu.
~ The mass graduation of Elder Club.

I'm missing things, but this is just how it goes. Everyone vents, gets out what they need to get out, then everyone adjusts and we move on. THAT is nothing new. I don't understand the need to be mad about the fan cycle we constantly see.
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby Menno » Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:01 am

I wonder if we get a new All for one, one for all / Mobekimas song for the 20th anniversary? I think it would be interesting, especially with all the recent changes. It could be done after Kudo's graduation and formation of Ichioka's new group.
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Re: H!P 20th Anniversary~ New Group System Discussion

Postby Shoujo Q » Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:51 am

Perform it at the countdown live/winter concert. Release at the beginning of the year. It's the only time they tend to have all the girls together at once. Aside from summer concert of course.
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